chains and ball joints ???

rlowride · 09-09-2002, 12:21 PM

yes, the force of the cylinder will push up onto the frame as it extends. But when this is happening, your control arm geometry is changing,,, the frame is going up, but the wheels are still on the ground. As the car locks up, all this force is transfered over to the upper a-arm which is connected to the wheel assembly with a ball joint. the ball joint then takes the brunt of this pressure. When the car trys to hop, its the cylinder pushing up on the frame, which in turn locks out the upper a arm connected to the wheel... The ball joints are the only connection between the control arm and wheel. So if you were to chain your cylinders to keep them from locking all the way up and keep this pressure off of the ball joint, then you wont break as many.

Unity_Jon · 09-09-2002, 01:39 PM

If thats what's happening surely the answer is to get a cylinder the correct length or slightly shorter so that locks out before any force is transferred to the ball joint ? If the chain locks at full lift and not before you might as well have a cylinder that does the same, the chain will only stop the lower a-arm falling off, can't see it help the ball joint any ?

I can however see the ball joint taking the brunt of the force on full drop as the wheel will want to continue up into the arch but the only thing stopping it, if the a-arm is on the stopz, are the ball joints, this isn't true for lift as the wheel is actually going down away from the frame and the ball joints only support the weight of the wheel when the A-arm drops to its limit.

Does that make sense ?

juandik · 09-10-2002, 02:16 AM

if this pic works ..this is no chains and hopping!!

i've seen a monte from here repeatedly bust balljoints just topping out with out hopping.

juandik · 09-10-2002, 02:22 AM

diagram of the spindle stressing the joint.

Unity_Jon · 09-10-2002, 08:25 AM

has anyone paid any attention to when the ball joints break, is it when the car leaves the ground, reaches its highest point or when it hits the floor really hard ?

There are no 'real' active hoppers in the UK as yet, although there will be soon and this is all new and interesting information.

juandik · 09-10-2002, 03:02 PM

when the car tops out,doesn't have to leave the groung...a-arms hit frame and stop lower control arm wants to keep going so the ball joint is the only thing to stop it NOT GOOD all the chains do is stop the lower from going too far in turn snapping a ball joint!

rlowride · 09-10-2002, 04:33 PM

[quote]Originally posted by juandik:
<strong>when the car tops out,doesn't have to leave the groung...a-arms hit frame and stop lower control arm wants to keep going so the ball joint is the only thing to stop it NOT GOOD all the chains do is stop the lower from going too far in turn snapping a ball joint!</strong><hr></blockquote>

and taking all the fun out of it........

CP · 09-11-2002, 01:41 AM

i dunno whats so fun about breaking ball joints! it has cost me some victories, but at the same time it has probably made me win when the competition has one go. chains work, but then you will just start breaking different things, and breaking the shaft on the ball joint.

SERIOUSHYDROS · 10-12-2002, 02:11 AM

Ball joints break during any of those circumstances. Just depends on when it finally fails. Your point about the shorter cylinders was a good one. However, chains are the most effective way to reduce stress on the balljoints. Most people use 8" cylinders up front. I like to use 6" myself because the upper a-arms still hit frame when locked up.The most destructive force to your ball joints is the added force of locking up and over extending the balljoints. Installing chains keeps the upper a-arm from hitting the frame. All the force being applied through the cylinder is then taken up by the chain and lower a-arm. Hitting the ground does put its own damage in but thats unavoidable

rlowride · 10-13-2002, 12:33 AM

i mnot sure if it was touched on: but in speaking of over extending ball joints, extending the upper a-arms is one way to reduce this. By extending the uppers, you push the ball joints out further and keep them from locking out/ overextending too soon.

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09-09-2002, 12:21 PM	#11 (permalink)
rlowride UnitedRidaz C.C. Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Giant sink hole in FLA. Posts: 3,034	yes, the force of the cylinder will push up onto the frame as it extends. But when this is happening, your control arm geometry is changing,,, the frame is going up, but the wheels are still on the ground. As the car locks up, all this force is transfered over to the upper a-arm which is connected to the wheel assembly with a ball joint. the ball joint then takes the brunt of this pressure. When the car trys to hop, its the cylinder pushing up on the frame, which in turn locks out the upper a arm connected to the wheel... The ball joints are the only connection between the control arm and wheel. So if you were to chain your cylinders to keep them from locking all the way up and keep this pressure off of the ball joint, then you wont break as many.

09-09-2002, 01:39 PM	#12 (permalink)
Unity_Jon Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 240	If thats what's happening surely the answer is to get a cylinder the correct length or slightly shorter so that locks out before any force is transferred to the ball joint ? If the chain locks at full lift and not before you might as well have a cylinder that does the same, the chain will only stop the lower a-arm falling off, can't see it help the ball joint any ? I can however see the ball joint taking the brunt of the force on full drop as the wheel will want to continue up into the arch but the only thing stopping it, if the a-arm is on the stopz, are the ball joints, this isn't true for lift as the wheel is actually going down away from the frame and the ball joints only support the weight of the wheel when the A-arm drops to its limit. Does that make sense ?

09-10-2002, 02:16 AM	#13 (permalink)
juandik Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: hamilton.ohio Posts: 9	if this pic works ..this is no chains and hopping!! i've seen a monte from here repeatedly bust balljoints just topping out with out hopping.

09-10-2002, 02:22 AM	#14 (permalink)
juandik Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: hamilton.ohio Posts: 9	diagram of the spindle stressing the joint.

09-10-2002, 08:25 AM	#15 (permalink)
Unity_Jon Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 240	has anyone paid any attention to when the ball joints break, is it when the car leaves the ground, reaches its highest point or when it hits the floor really hard ? There are no 'real' active hoppers in the UK as yet, although there will be soon and this is all new and interesting information.

09-10-2002, 03:02 PM	#16 (permalink)
juandik Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: hamilton.ohio Posts: 9	when the car tops out,doesn't have to leave the groung...a-arms hit frame and stop lower control arm wants to keep going so the ball joint is the only thing to stop it NOT GOOD all the chains do is stop the lower from going too far in turn snapping a ball joint!

09-10-2002, 04:33 PM	#17 (permalink)
rlowride UnitedRidaz C.C. Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Giant sink hole in FLA. Posts: 3,034	[quote]Originally posted by juandik: <strong>when the car tops out,doesn't have to leave the groung...a-arms hit frame and stop lower control arm wants to keep going so the ball joint is the only thing to stop it NOT GOOD all the chains do is stop the lower from going too far in turn snapping a ball joint!</strong><hr></blockquote> and taking all the fun out of it........

09-11-2002, 01:41 AM	#18 (permalink)
CP Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: cincinnati, ohio Posts: 5	i dunno whats so fun about breaking ball joints! it has cost me some victories, but at the same time it has probably made me win when the competition has one go. chains work, but then you will just start breaking different things, and breaking the shaft on the ball joint.

10-12-2002, 02:11 AM	#19 (permalink)
SERIOUSHYDROS Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NOR.CAL. Posts: 16	Ball joints break during any of those circumstances. Just depends on when it finally fails. Your point about the shorter cylinders was a good one. However, chains are the most effective way to reduce stress on the balljoints. Most people use 8" cylinders up front. I like to use 6" myself because the upper a-arms still hit frame when locked up.The most destructive force to your ball joints is the added force of locking up and over extending the balljoints. Installing chains keeps the upper a-arm from hitting the frame. All the force being applied through the cylinder is then taken up by the chain and lower a-arm. Hitting the ground does put its own damage in but thats unavoidable

10-13-2002, 12:33 AM	#20 (permalink)
rlowride UnitedRidaz C.C. Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Giant sink hole in FLA. Posts: 3,034	i mnot sure if it was touched on: but in speaking of over extending ball joints, extending the upper a-arms is one way to reduce this. By extending the uppers, you push the ball joints out further and keep them from locking out/ overextending too soon.